New classing/points

[impalanut]

Haven't seen anything new in th last few days. I don't know if it's the holiday season or the move to the new server. I would still like to see more feedback from more people we haven't heard from and decide if we need a meeting or can get it all done throught the forum.

[Native]

If I may be allowed to flex my Director muscle a little...I'd like to urge the original 4 members of the planning committee to go ahead and make a decision on this. THere's been a lot of discussion, and it has died off over the past few days. People who care have had their say, and it's time to compile the information and make some choices.

Maybe instead of a meeting ya'll can do some "behind the scenes" emails and hash this out. Doing it publically on the forum is probably not going to work well, as no one will take charge and "git 'r' done," and the debate will just continue to cycle and cycle...

Jan 13 is about 4 weeks away, and we need half of that time, at least, to give people notice as to the new classing, have it set up for pre-registration, etc....

edit: in fact, we got our first question about it today, as in "will classing be ready for the Jan event?" I kid you not...

[Loren]

Has anyone volunteered to be "the classing guy" for next season yet? I think YOU, Steve, and that person need to make the decision.

If someone could compile the most obvious choices from our discussion, that might be helpful.

[Native]

I'm ok with that idea, too.

[muddy]

I nominate Jamie. He is the only logical choice. The other two members of the committee have not been able to attend events on a regular basis, and I won't be here to complete the season.

[muddy]

Here is a list of the proposals I found on the NASA board.

Native (steve)

where street tire is arbitrarily a 140 treadwear or more:

Street tire, 195 section and less
Race tire, 195 section and less
Street tire, 205-225
Race tire, 205-225
Street tire, above 225
Race tire, above 225

6 classes, easy to tell what class you are in, easy to police.

Jamie

For modifications, make two broad categories. Modified would be:

* Any internal engine modification (crank, cams, rods, pistons)
* Any external engine modification that alters fuel delivery (alternate carb, altered fuel injection, fuel-air ratio adjusters)
* Welded chassis reinforcement, including welded roll bars/cages
* Alternate or altered springs
* Alternate main body panels (doors, hood, trunk lid, fenders, roof panel, windows)
* Removal of interior parts (seats, interior panels)

Anything else is free.

Throw in one class for open wheel or sports racing cars (just in case), and we get nine classes:

* Unmodified street tire less than 3 liters
* Unmodified street tire 3 liters and greater
* Modified street tire less than 3 liters
* Modified street tire 3 liters and greater
* Unmodified race tire less than 3 liters
* Unmodified race tire 3 liters and greater
* Modified race tire less than 3 liters
* Modified race tire 3 liters and greater
* Open or closed wheel race cars

Jamie

* Unmodified street tire less than 3 liters
* Unmodified street tire 3 liters and greater
* Modified street tire less than 3 liters
* Modified street tire 3 liters and greater
* Unmodified race tire less than 3 liters
* Unmodified race tire 3 liters and greater
* Modified race tire less than 3 liters
* Modified race tire 3 liters and greater
* Open or closed wheel race cars

Muddy (brian)

SST - stock street tire, under 2.0L
SST2 - stock street tire, over 2.0L + FI
MST - modified street tire under 2.0L
MST2 - modified street tire over 2.0L + FI
RS- stock race tire under 2.0L
RS2 - race tire stock over 2.0L + FI
RM - race tire modified under 2.0L
RM2 - race tire modified over 2.0L + FI

Street tires follow the SCCA definition, 140+ treadwear rating.
Race tires bump to race tire class.
Standard NASA-X modification points apply. 15 points bumps to "modified".

Jeremy

under 3.2L SCCA Stock/Street Tires
under 3.2L Unlimited Mods/Street Tires
under 3.2L SCCA Stock/Race Tires
under 3.2L Unlimited Mods/Race Tires
3.2L and over + all FI SCCA Stock/Street Tires
3.2L and over + all FI w/ Unlimited Mods/Street Tires
3.2L and over + all FI SCCA Stock/Race Tires
3.2L and over + all FI w/ Unlimited Mods/Race Tires
Novice Street Tires
Novice Race Tires

Jeremy

1-novice - less than 6 events
2- street rubber less than 15 NASA points
3- street rubber more than 15 NASA points
4- race rubber less than 15 points
5- race rubber more than 15 point "

Maybe bump it up to 20 points or so.

Jeremy

Class 1
ss 0.848 (Elise)
as 0.838 (C5 Vette)
bs 0.828 (RX-8)
fs 0.809 (Camaro)
ds 0.804 (Integra Type-R)

Class 2
es 0.812 (MR2)
cs 0.822 (Solstice)
gs 0.803 (Cooper S)
hs 0.789 (Cooper)

Impalanut (howard)

This is the new SCCA pax list:
SS .848 AS .838 BS .828 CS .822 ES .812
FS .809 DS .804 GS .803 HS .789

We could combine BS/CS, ES/FS, and DS/GS since their pax times are very close. This would give six classes. Bump up by NASA points. Two race tire classes splitting in the middle with bump by NASA points. Then a novice class all comers less than a certain number of events. This would give a wrokable 9 classes . You could even combine ES/FS/DS/GS into a single class since the paxes are so close and have a total of 8 classes.

Loren

Street Skinny - treadwear greater than 290, width 225 or less.
Street Wide - treadwear greater than 290, width greater than 225.
Sport Skinny - treadwear greater than 140, width 225 or less.
Sport Wide - treadwear greater than 140, width greater than 225.
Race Skinny - any competition tire, width 225 (8.5" for slicks) or less.
Race Wide - any competition tire, width greater than 225 (8.5").

[Alizarin]

Just for archival purposes, here are the links to the 2 "original" threads on the NASA forum:

NASA-X Classing Structure Ideas
Classing Steward and Committee needed

I don't see any easy way of exporting all those posts to some sort of document, so I guess links will have to do.

[Anonymous]

Don't forget the people over on whinyforums.com
http://sccaforums.com/forums/1/226194/S" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... spx#226194
The actual PAX administrator Rick Ruth joined the discussion.

That one above that was credited to me, was actually someone else's that I just quoted...

And my actual favorite for GREAT JUSTICE is...

1.) under 3.0L Lightly modified/Street Tires
2.) under 3.0L Unlimited Mods/Street Tires
3.) under 3.0L Lightly modified/Race Tires
4.) 3.0L and over + all FI Lightly modified/Street Tires
5.) 3.0L and over + all FI w/ Unlimited Mods/Street Tires
6.) 3.0L and over + all FI Lightly modified/Race Tires
7.) Any displacement + all FI w/ Unlimited Mods/Race Tires
8.) Novice

*Any SCCA SS/AS/BS cars automatically bump to their respective OVER 3.0L class.
*Lightly modified can be anything the committee wants, just no spring replacement or aftermarket camber adjustment.

[Jamie]

Since Steve and Brian asked me to run this to a conclusion, I'm inclined towards one of two choices:

Choice 1:

Eight classes, divided up by displacement, modifications, and tires

A - Modified race tire (all)
B- Production race tire 3 liters and greater
C - Production race tire less than 3 liters
D - Modified street tire 3 liters and greater
E - Modified street tire less than 3 liters
F - Production street tire 3 liters and greater
G - Production street tire less than 3 liters
R - Open or closed wheel race cars (all)

Modified cars are production-based cars with any of the following modifcations:

* Any internal engine modification (crank, cams, rods, pistons)
* Any external engine modification that alters fuel delivery (alternate carb, altered fuel injection, fuel-air ratio adjusters)
* Welded chassis reinforcement, including welded roll bars/cages
* Alternate or altered springs
* Altered suspension geometry (relocated pickup points, alternate suspension parts to increase factory alignment adjustment range such as camber kits, camber plates, or slotted strut mounts)
* Alternate main body panels (doors, hood, trunk lid, fenders, roof panel, windows)
* Removal of interior parts (seats, interior panels)

All other modifications are free. Street tires are DOT tires with treadwear rating of 140 or above. Forced induction bumps engine displacement by a factor of 1.5. At some point, we'd need to decide if kit cars are production-based or race cars...weight differences could be significant.

Pros: easy to classify, separates out most of the big performance differences.
Cons: doesn't completely eliminate ringers (Lotus Elise w/ 1.8 liter, for example), some classes may be lightly populated.

Choice 2:

Two indexed classes based on tires.

S - Street tire -- DOT tires with treadwear rating of 140 or above. Internally indexed using PAX for SCCA classes.
R - Race tire -- all other tires. Internally indexed using PAX for SCCA classes.

Pros: Never an underpopulated class.
Cons: Requires additional calculations and knowledge of a car's SCCA class to produce results.

Discuss over the next 24 hours, and I'll pick.

[Loren]

If those are the choices, I'd go with #1. Pretty simple concept.

[Anonymous]

#1

Also, my engine is 1998 cc x 1.5 = 2997cc
Can I run in the under 3.0L class?

[Charles]

#1

Also, my engine is 1998 cc x 1.5 = 2997cc
C

3 liter = 3 000 cubic centimeter
2997cc < 3,000cc
SR 240 = Winner!



I think I'll vote for #2 although I could go either way...

[Anonymous]

2.997L = 3.0L
I would run in the bigger class if that's the winner.
Someone explain significant digits to Charles please.

Doesn't matter anyway, I will easily win in either class.

[AScoda]

I'll cast a vote for #1
The second option may be more accurate and would probably prove to be very competitive, but not a casual, simplified system like we were trying to create. For stock cars maybe, but modifications complicate things. Drivers also won't know their standings at the end of an event with out some calculating. And, it looks like a lot of extra work for the person handling the results. If we could get everything worked into a computer that would generate everything automatically, I'd say we choose #2. For now, #1.

[blacksheep-1]

In MP-1 why would you group AWD with RWD and leave out FWD?, the 4WD will kill the rear drivers as fast as they will kill the front drivers.
Essentially what you're saying there is "don't show up in this class with a rear drive car".

[Native]

Rob, the two options under consideration are in Jamie's post dated Thu Dec 21, 2006, 10:55 pm

No mention of drive wheels.

I vote for #1

[muddy]

#2 is too complicated and requires too many calculations. Competitors would have no idea where the stand until the event is over.

I vote for #1. 8)

[Anonymous]

I noticed that a Novice class is missing from both choices. Is that intentional?

I am in favor of having a Novice class for several reasons...

People will feel better about their times, since the sport is only about drivers, it would make sense for new people to be together.

It also helps identify people that may need assistance with driving or working course or car prep or whatever. Also I kind of agree with the SCCA rule that novices can only take instructors as passengers.

Of course Novice class won't be mandatory, but highly encouraged for at least your first race.

[impalanut]

#2 doesn't require any calculations for the base classes. There is just a list of cars and classes like the list we used for NASA. We will use the pax index to join the classes that are functionally similar. In my past post I showed the following classes with some examples. You would then bump up classes based on NASA points to allow for mods.
SS (vette,porsche) AS (s2000,sti,evo) BS (rx8, some bmw)
CS (miata,solstice,mr2turbo) DS(wrx,integra, audi tt)
ES (older miata, non turbo mr2) FS (v8 mustang/camaro, cts-v)
GS (most acura,honda,celica,vw,mini s)
HS (older/smaller honda,mazda,datsun)
You can see that BS and CS are similar in type , as is DS/GS, and ES/FS and they have very close pax numbers. This would give six street classes.

I would still recommend only one or two race tire classes so we don't have single car classes.

[impalanut]

If some one could e mail me the lists of cars and points from the last few events I would compile an example list each way. It may be obvious that one of these is much better for our club as a starting point based on the typical turnout. We shoulds consider that what works for a large national organization may not be good for us and vice versa.