Yes. Width vs. Height is out of whack. We saw it in action with my Mirage. Scary stuff.AScoda wrote:Why is that? Too top heavy for their small wheelbase?Loren wrote: the base model Fiesta (which SCCA says shouldn't be allowed to autocross in stock form, anyway) or the Mirage (same thing).
Not sure. But, Ledwell never got his Fiero dialed in, either. Wouldn't be a fair assessment.How did Dan's times compare to Rob Ledwell's times when he was winning S5?
Loren wrote:Freakin' Drew and his freakin' Mustang.
dan wrote:Freakin' Drew and his freakin' Miata.
Rawkkrawler wrote:Freakin’ Drew and his OTHER freakin’ Mustang!
Loren wrote:Freakin' Drew and his freakin' Mustang.
dan wrote:Freakin' Drew and his freakin' Miata.
Rawkkrawler wrote:Freakin’ Drew and his OTHER freakin’ Mustang!
Hard to say. You know as well as I that the Stock/Street classes have always been subject to the car of the moment, which in itself is driven as much by contingencies, availability, and top driver whim early in the season as anything else. A couple of jacket-wearers pick up a car, and all of the sudden that's the only car for the class. That doesn't mean no other cars have the potential...it just means no one with the talent is developing and driving them. Every now and then, you get something like GS in the late '90s, where several different cars end up in the hands of top drivers, and it gets very entertaining.Loren wrote:Implying that Dan's Mazda 3S is as fast as... a Fiesta ST or a Mini Cooper S? Nobody's trophying in HS at Nationals with a Mazda 3. It's not even close to on par with the top of HS.
The Cooper S is still a DS car, so you can stop comparing it. But it's a good illustration of why power-to-weight isn't an adequate measure: the Cooper is in DS because it has a limited slip differential...the perception, at least, is that the Fiesta's stability control isn't as good as a real LSD. Different discussion on torque transfer and limiting devices.Where is the top of the class?
Fiesta ST = 2700 lbs & 197 hp = 13.7
Cooper S = 2600 lbs & 192 hp = 13.5
If you're going to be focused on numbers before giving the original concept a chance, open up the tire limits to OEM, impose a 3-liter limit, and a x2 multiplier for forced induction. That'll still eliminate your '17 Camry (3.5-liter engine and 215 tires, for crissake!), but it opens the field to lots of other cars without getting crazy.If we make the class too restrictive (which is where it is now if we eliminate the ES cars), there's no competition. If we don't make it restrictive enough, it becomes on par with S4. Gotta find that sweet spot in the middle.
Dan that is exciting. Are you presently building a kit car or just the same one I've been building in my head since 1985?dbeng wrote: By which time maybe this will all be moot if I ever finish building my kit car and then I will run the race tire class anyway
Displacement is meaningless in this age. Well, not meaningless, but not meaningFUL enough. Does it have VVT, direct injection, turbo? HP is readily availabe for any modern car, and it a much more relevant measure than displacement. You can divorce that from weight if you want... but, weight is just as easily available. And while power/weight is not the end-all of classing considerations, power and weight give you a MUCH better idea of what kind of acceleration a car is capable of than just "displacement".Jamie wrote:The Cooper S is still a DS car, so you can stop comparing it.
I'll be damned. I always thought it was HS. Don't know why.
There's a discussion that I hope we can put off for a few more years.But it's a good illustration of why power-to-weight isn't an adequate measure: the Cooper is in DS because it has a limited slip differential...the perception, at least, is that the Fiesta's stability control isn't as good as a real LSD. Different discussion on torque transfer and limiting devices.
If you're going to be focused on numbers before giving the original concept a chance, open up the tire limits to OEM, impose a 3-liter limit, and a x2 multiplier for forced induction. That'll still eliminate your '17 Camry (3.5-liter engine and 215 tires, for crissake!), but it opens the field to lots of other cars without getting crazy.
Now that would get me out on a Monday night!Loren wrote:We've offered to move FAST Monday to Dan's garage and have his Stalker finished in 2 months. He didn't bite.
Awesome. You are 35 years ahead of me all ready!!!dbeng wrote:Well Doug, that a very good question
Am I presently building a kit?
Yes, in as much as I do actually own a Stalker kit and started assembling it over 2 years ago.
However, presently can be taken in the loosest form as I haven’t turned a bolt on it for over a year. Dan
Because Keith Robertson makes a standard Cooper (which is in HS) look as fast as a Cooper S.Loren wrote:I'll be damned. I always thought it was HS. Don't know why.Jamie wrote:The Cooper S is still a DS car, so you can stop comparing it.
You have much of that work done for you simply by confining yourself to H Street...the SAC has already looked at that math before placing cars there. Displacement's easy for people to find, but use horsepower if you don't like that...there's an even chance people will know (or can find) that. Anything more complex, and you'll end up spending an evening working out classing before every event, because your new entrants aren't going to sit there and figure out power-to-weight ratios.Displacement is meaningless in this age. Well, not meaningless, but not meaningFUL enough. Does it have VVT, direct injection, turbo? HP is readily availabe for any modern car, and it a much more relevant measure than displacement. You can divorce that from weight if you want... but, weight is just as easily available. And while power/weight is not the end-all of classing considerations, power and weight give you a MUCH better idea of what kind of acceleration a car is capable of than just "displacement".
They've done the math for cars that they care about. "Camry" still occupies one line in H Street. Even the fire-breathing 260 hp V6 version. (and that's just one example) Yesterday you were concerned about that Camry 3.5 liter V6, and it's 215 tires.Jamie wrote:You have much of that work done for you simply by confining yourself to H Street...the SAC has already looked at that math before placing cars there.
I'll just do what I usually do and guess 90% of the time when someone leaves their class blank. If it's wrong, somebody who cares will catch it. It takes 30 seconds to look up HP and Weight. Not a big deal.Displacement's easy for people to find, but use horsepower if you don't like that...there's an even chance people will know (or can find) that. Anything more complex, and you'll end up spending an evening working out classing before every event, because your new entrants aren't going to sit there and figure out power-to-weight ratios.
If I achieve victory, there will be nothing hollow about it. I have a wager with a certain other old guy who will have to buy both of our families a steak dinner if he can't beat me by a total of nine points in the remaining two Open events.Loren wrote:Thanks for providing the counterpoint to Philip's "hollow victory" argument.
Fixed that for you. You could have just as easily gone and bought a used standard MINI, or an Integra, or any number of used Hondas, or a host of other HS cars. I'm not faulting you -- the rules allowed a Miata, so why not buy the best car for the class, but that's why S5 effectively became a spec Miata class. For anything not a Miata or other ES-sourced car, it was shooting fish in a barrel.Blue_Heron wrote:I moved to S5, bought a Miata and swapped in an open diff specifically to qualify, because I was frustrated with my lack of competitiveness in M2. S5 allowed me to run a car generally superior to HS-sourced cars in the class.
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