Da Groj

I've only been to SPC once at last year's noob school where I was one of a handful of people that stuck around to reset the course. Even with map in hand it was confusing as all get out and getting the cones to match the map was very difficult, let alone lining them up with any of the multiple sets of dots that seemed to be present. Pretty much the last thing you want to be doing after a day of autocross is staring at a map trying to picture what things should look like from ground level and searching for dots. We got it done the best we could but if they truly got it 95%+ at this last event and they're charging for a few cones out of place then they seriously just need to do it themselves. Let's see how much they want for this cone resetting, maybe it WOULD be worth it even if the event entry fee had to go up a few bucks to finance it.

Yeah, it's a royal pain... but, as Steve said, it's their site and they make the rules. We need them more than they need us. In fact, they don't need us at all.

Unfortunately, there just aren't a lot of autocross sites in this area to choose from.

I can laminate some maps. and add "helpful" tips.
There needs to be an announcement at the drivers' meeting.
There are multiple sets of dots, which makes it worse.
I have no idea if the big cones and small cones even matter.

Bottom line is, if we have events there, we'll be resetting cones.

Loren wrote:Yeah, it's a royal pain... but, as Steve said, it's their site and they make the rules. We need them more than they need us. In fact, they don't need us at all.

Unfortunately, there just aren't a lot of autocross sites in this area to choose from.

I do find it amazing how limited the sites are. In a region with millions of people there are only a few thousand at most who have done any sort of performance driving. But you'd think that with those millions of people would come more than a few with large paved surfaces who wouldn't mind making a few bucks on the side during low-use weekend time. Yet here we are with the entire 19th-largest-US-metro-area autocross scene limited to two airstrips and a police skidpad.

Of course, if you want to understand why, just looking at the thread that lead to the event at the baseball field should provide some illumination as to the tremendous difficulty in finding and gaining the use of new sites. Hats off to the people who made that one happen, and one can only hope that more sites can be found over time because it seems like old ones eventually go away for some reason or another.

Even while there are people willing to help with the reset, it's usually the blind leading the blind. Let's find at least one person who actually knows how to reset the course and crosstrain. Crosstrain once and have two more who know how it works...etc, etc. A certified police-course-setter-upper may not be necessary, but at minimum we (event chair) should make sure at least one of these folks has the know-how.

Jordan Y. wrote:
I do find it amazing how limited the sites are.

But you'd think that with those millions of people would come more than a few with large paved surfaces who wouldn't mind making a few bucks on the side during low-use weekend time.

I agree with you, I don't know how many paved lots there are out there large enough and that are free of obstructions (light poles, drain grates, etc.). Then you have some areas that have noise restrictions on the property on the weekends.

I believe some of the owners of the lots that are usuable, probably are scared of any liabilty issues, and you can't blame them. Even with a signed injury waiver, it still doesn't completely protect them from being sued over an injury on their property.

I always thought if you/we/I/they had enough money they could open a auto x site by paving 10 plus acres with a covered picnic area and restrooms and rent it out to auto x clubs. There's a ton of acreage for sale down here in the Bradenton and Lakeland area that I bet would work.

Even while there are people willing to help with the reset, it's usually the blind leading the blind. Let's find at least one person who actually knows how to reset the course and crosstrain. Crosstrain once and have two more who know how it works...etc, etc. A certified police-course-setter-upper may not be necessary, but at minimum we (event chair) should make sure at least one of these folks has the know-how.

The quicker the course is reset, the quicker I can lock the gate and go home. I've reset the course more than I care to remember, and I have a reasonable strategy for resetting it (at lease one that hasn't been complained about), and can certainly share it with someone who would be willing to "crosstrain."

I always thought if you/we/I/they had enough money they could open a auto x site by paving 10 plus acres with a covered picnic area and restrooms and rent it out to auto x clubs. There's a ton of acreage for sale down here in the Bradenton and Lakeland area that I bet would work.

I could start playing the lottery for the club...

Native wrote: The quicker the course is reset, the quicker I can lock the gate and go home.

I hear you loud and clear, that's why I've been very vocal about having a crew resetting the course and another to load the trailer. Not saying I'll never do it again (because I will), but there's something about being the first one there with the trailer and the last one leaving with it (see Bill ) . Nothing worse than seeing a area dispurse, with just a few people left to help load the trailer and reset the course with limited knowledge of how it's set up, and knowing everyone just wants to go home.

solar 90GT/03Si wrote:...that's why I've been very vocal about having a crew resetting the course and another to load the trailer.

If that translates to taking two more people out ofthe pool of workers during the event, it's not practical. At least 12 people are assigned to pre- and post-event tasks in place of working in the run groups -- couple that with the goal of sizing the run groups to complete in about an hour (it takes a minimum of 12 people to work a group -- 15-17 is better), and it's rare there are spare workers left over. Our normal 3-group format pretty well soaks up everything 60 people can provide.

IMO, the best bet is to make the need for volunteers known at the drivers' meeting. We generally have a high proportion of people new to the site who may not know anything about resetting the school course...ask at the drivers' meeting, and make an announcement during the the last heat.

For thought: we currently clear the entire pad to set up our courses. Is it possible to design a course moving as few school cones as possible?

Jamie wrote:For thought: we currently clear the entire pad to set up our courses. Is it possible to design a course moving as few school cones as possible?

I've looked at that before. It's possible to use "some" of their course. But, their standards for being away from hard objects differ greatly from ours. Pretty much anything on the perimeter we can't use.

IMO, volunteers who end up sick of having to suck up the slack isn't the way to go.

SPC events should have a minimum of 4 pre-assigned workers as part of the clean-up effort or the event doesn't happen. If people are registered and are warned a week ahead of time that it's not going to happen unless more people step up for this task, they are certainly likely to.

The club needs to stand its ground when it's appropriate.

solar 90GT/03Si wrote:I hear you loud and clear, that's why I've been very vocal about having a crew resetting the course and another to load the trailer. Not saying I'll never do it again (because I will), but there's something about being the first one there with the trailer and the last one leaving with it (see Bill ) .

Bill has been quite enjoying the break of not towing the trailer over the past few months. He's been able to schedule other activities for late afternoons on the same day, and even sleep in (relative to his normal "get up at 5 to tow the trailer" routine).

However it appears that Bill and his better half will be back to towing the trailer most months possibly as early as September.

(Bill is talking about himself in the 3rd person again. Experience shows that this is never a good thing and could presage the reappearance of Bob. And, as everyone knows, we don't want that to happen!)

Loren wrote:I've looked at that before. It's possible to use "some" of their course. But, their standards for being away from hard objects differ greatly from ours. Pretty much anything on the perimeter we can't use.

Do we need to move the cones we don't use? Can we just lay them down to avoid visual confusion, but leaving them easier to reset? Don't know...I'm thinking out loud on this one.

kickslop wrote:SPC events should have a minimum of 4 pre-assigned workers as part of the clean-up effort or the event doesn't happen.

Per run group:
2 timers
1 starter
1 grid boss
8 course workers (assuming 4 stations w/ 2 workers per)
12 wokers per group * 3 groups = 36 workers minimum. That doesn't include the ever-popular person to write times on the board, or additional course workers -- there are many times when some, if not all of the stations would be better off with 3 people -- that bumps the total up to 17 workers per group, or 54 overall.

As I mentioned above, there are another 12 people assigned to chairing the event, setup, teardown, registration, tech, and safety as their work assignment. That doesn't count people doing double duty, like Kenny setting up the timing database and then pulling a shift during a run group in the trailer.

So it takes a minimum of 48 people to run an event, and up to 66 to do it better. Our typical turnouts are 50-60 people. Volunteers have and will have to carry the day.

Wouldn't be a problem with split heats and only 2 run groups.

I know, I know, you can't fit 30 cars on grid at St. Pete.

Not only that, but 30 cars x 8 runs, even with a quick 25 second overlap = 100 minutes... and that's without delays.

If we bank on a more typical 6 runs with a more typical 30 second overlap, you're still looking at 90 minutes. That's a long time to leave course workers out. We know it happens sometimes, but we shouldn't make that our standard. This is Florida, after all.

20 cars x 8 runs with a 30 second overlap is easily achievable on most days if we have our crap together and get started on time. That's 80 minutes max.

The other pitfall of the 2-heat system is that at the end of the day, EVERYONE has just finished either standing on the hot grid with their car for 90 minutes, or working course for 90 minutes.

We'd actually do better to go to a 4-heat system and spread the workers thinner and put them out for a shorter period of time. You really only need about 8-10 workers for the course and grid. Working timing should be a volunteer position. (and often is)

Oh, and one thing we used to do back in the day that helped get people to stick around. Rather than handing out trophies at the beginning of the day and eating up time at the driver's meeting... hand out trophies after all of the cones have been picked up and the trailer is well on its way to being loaded. With Kenny's new time-keeping system, it should be easy to generate a trophy list at the end of the day while the course is being picked up.

Okay, done rambling.

Loren wrote:Not only that, but 30 cars x 8 runs, even with a quick 25 second overlap = 100 minutes... and that's without delays.

When I said split heats, I meant split run groups. 4 runs in the morning and 4 runs in the afternoon.

Loren wrote:The other pitfall of the 2-heat system is that at the end of the day, EVERYONE has just finished either standing on the hot grid with their car for 90 minutes, or working course for 90 minutes.

3 run groups aren't much better. Only 1/3 of the people get the break.

Yes 4 run groups would be best, but I wouldn't attempt that without 100 people. Personally I wouldn't go to 3 run groups without 75 people. That's just me though.

Loren wrote:You really only need about 8-10 workers for the course and grid.

That's what we're doing now, which works OK for SPC, but at Brooksville can have people scrambling simply because there's so much area to cover. If there are people available, I like to put three-person teams on at least two of the stations at Brooksville, but don't always have that luxury.

Working timing should be a volunteer position. (and often is)

For the last two seasons, it's been an assigned position -- and cherry-picked at that. I consider start and timing the two critical positions to keeping an event going smoothly, and try to assign experienced people to those whenever possible.

Jeremy wrote:When I said split heats, I meant split run groups. 4 runs in the morning and 4 runs in the afternoon.

Works for me, but in previous summers, split run groups produced alot of howling from the crowd. Of course this summer, we might consider it as a way of getting everyone a dry run: two runs, switch, two runs, switch....

Brooksville doesn't need to be changed, there are no cones to reset at the end. I agree that eight course workers are enough at SPC. I think split run groups are a pain, it means twice as many worker changes and little flexibility for people with issues that require them to leave early. Also will require a longer lunch break since everyone is always working or running. Personally I like the four run groups, since there is a break between each time you run and work, and it allows more assistance for the new people, like ride alongs and advice. Four groups of twelve to fifteen would work fine if timing is voluntary. We already have a small group of people who do much more than just their one assigned job, and I suppose that won't change. It also makes each run group short The other thing to consider is more than one assigned job, or discount to people who volunteer for the extra jobs. If people are willing to pay the college for cone set up, we could discount the fees to people willing to reset cones for the same or less money.

impalanut wrote:I think split run groups are a pain, it means twice as many worker changes

Actually it's only one more change. 3 heats vs. 4 heats

impalanut wrote:and little flexibility for people with issues that require them to leave early.

Sure it does, they can leave during lunch. ???

impalanut wrote:
Also will require a longer lunch break since everyone is always working or running.

We already have a long lunch break, any additional time would probably be insignificant. Our current setup, someone can come in from working the course eat lunch and then immediately go back out and drive. Lunch is a standard time that won't change much.

Split run groups are superior to non-split in every way, and no one will convince me otherwise. Especially for someone who wants to improve driving skill. Being able to stop running, change settings to your car, re-walk the course, ask for advice or ridealongs, and then go back out and get 4 more shots at the course is way better for improving driver skill than running 8 and done. There are other benefits also.

Please note: I am not trying to argue. 8 runs and done is OK with me too. I still love all of you.

Jeremy, you need to chair an event. Do it up right, and show us how well it works.

Believe it or not, I'm almost convinced.

I think the problem is that the last time anyone tried it, it happened to be a less than well-organized event. If we do it to our usual standard, it could work.

As you said, it adds one extra worker change. It has the benefit of breaking up the day a little more, making the workers stand out in the heat for a shorter period of time (twice... but at least they're only out for 30-45 minutes at a time), and perhaps the biggest benefit is that it could get some more people to stick around later to help pick up.

Combine that with afternoon trophy presentation and we could be onto something.