Da Groj

AScoda wrote:

Loren wrote: the base model Fiesta (which SCCA says shouldn't be allowed to autocross in stock form, anyway) or the Mirage (same thing).

Why is that? Too top heavy for their small wheelbase?

Yes. Width vs. Height is out of whack. We saw it in action with my Mirage. Scary stuff.

How did Dan's times compare to Rob Ledwell's times when he was winning S5?

Not sure. But, Ledwell never got his Fiero dialed in, either. Wouldn't be a fair assessment.

After some in-depth statistical forensics, Dan missed a few events when Rob was showing up regularly. Out of only 2 events that they were both at, Rob topped Dan once and Dan bested Rob once. Don't think that is a big enough sample size for comparison.

Also, not sure "dialing in" a Fiero is possible.
You know it has front suspension on both ends of the car, right?
The rear suspension is the front suspension from a Chevy Citation or some such nonsense.
The Fiero could have been so good.

Without looking too deep into the results, it looks like Dan is 2-3 seconds off of the top of S4 (which, itself isn't where it should be... even with Philip, because Philip would be EVEN FASTER in a properly prepared S4 car vs. his car with crap suspension and an open diff). And if you ask Philip (we were talking about this last night), he doesn't think he can drive Dan's car any faster than Dan can. And I've driven Dan's car and can't remember the last time I finished more than a half second ahead of him, if that. Dan's driving pretty well, and he's got his car about as maxed out as most people would in FAST Stock classes. And he's 2-3 seconds back.

How does this compare to S5? Well, 2-3 seconds back is about where I expect S5 to be. (really, that's a LONG way back, with top drivers and top cars, S5 should only be about 1 second back)

How are Dan's times compared to the winning S5 times? It seems like he's generally pretty close to them, sometimes faster. That's a problem if you think the current S5 is too fast. Personally, I *don't* think the current S5 is too fast. It's just that the winning cars in S5 are Miatas, and that sends the wrong "message" about what that class is about or what it should take to win it. You could just as well win it with Dan's 3 or my Mirage, it's all about decent setup, good tires, and good driving!

Where does this put us? Kind of where we started a long time ago. What do we want in S5? The fastest HS cars are too fast. We want to rule those "fastest" cars out. We want a class where a "lesser car" can have a chance at being competitive. And if it is losing, it's losing to at least a "similar" car. Not a sports car. Not a factory special tuned rice rocket. But, an everyday low-budget economy/commuter car.

Given the choice, I'd rather see Dan and the occasional cars like the Sonata and Camry in S5 on their stock sized tires than the Miatas on 195's. Sure, my first choice would be to have a class full of sub-100 hp cars on 195's... but, that ain't gonna happen. But, open it up to cars of similar power-to-weight as those lightweight 100 hp cars... well, there are a lot more possibilities.

Loren wrote:Implying that Dan's Mazda 3S is as fast as... a Fiesta ST or a Mini Cooper S? Nobody's trophying in HS at Nationals with a Mazda 3. It's not even close to on par with the top of HS.

Hard to say. You know as well as I that the Stock/Street classes have always been subject to the car of the moment, which in itself is driven as much by contingencies, availability, and top driver whim early in the season as anything else. A couple of jacket-wearers pick up a car, and all of the sudden that's the only car for the class. That doesn't mean no other cars have the potential...it just means no one with the talent is developing and driving them. Every now and then, you get something like GS in the late '90s, where several different cars end up in the hands of top drivers, and it gets very entertaining.

Where is the top of the class?
Fiesta ST = 2700 lbs & 197 hp = 13.7
Cooper S = 2600 lbs & 192 hp = 13.5

The Cooper S is still a DS car, so you can stop comparing it. But it's a good illustration of why power-to-weight isn't an adequate measure: the Cooper is in DS because it has a limited slip differential...the perception, at least, is that the Fiesta's stability control isn't as good as a real LSD. Different discussion on torque transfer and limiting devices.

If we make the class too restrictive (which is where it is now if we eliminate the ES cars), there's no competition. If we don't make it restrictive enough, it becomes on par with S4. Gotta find that sweet spot in the middle.

If you're going to be focused on numbers before giving the original concept a chance, open up the tire limits to OEM, impose a 3-liter limit, and a x2 multiplier for forced induction. That'll still eliminate your '17 Camry (3.5-liter engine and 215 tires, for crissake!), but it opens the field to lots of other cars without getting crazy.

dbeng wrote: By which time maybe this will all be moot if I ever finish building my kit car and then I will run the race tire class anyway

Dan that is exciting. Are you presently building a kit car or just the same one I've been building in my head since 1985?

Well Doug, that a very good question
Am I presently building a kit?
Yes, in as much as I do actually own a Stalker kit and started assembling it over 2 years ago.
However, presently can be taken in the loosest form as I haven’t turned a bolt on it for over a year. There always seems to be something else on the to do list between home projects, work, autocross and of course spending some time with my wife there’s not much time left at the end of the week.
I have been working through my long list of other projects recently and am getting closer to focussing on the kit car again.
Dan

Jamie wrote:The Cooper S is still a DS car, so you can stop comparing it.

I'll be damned. I always thought it was HS. Don't know why.

But it's a good illustration of why power-to-weight isn't an adequate measure: the Cooper is in DS because it has a limited slip differential...the perception, at least, is that the Fiesta's stability control isn't as good as a real LSD. Different discussion on torque transfer and limiting devices.

There's a discussion that I hope we can put off for a few more years.

If you're going to be focused on numbers before giving the original concept a chance, open up the tire limits to OEM, impose a 3-liter limit, and a x2 multiplier for forced induction. That'll still eliminate your '17 Camry (3.5-liter engine and 215 tires, for crissake!), but it opens the field to lots of other cars without getting crazy.

Displacement is meaningless in this age. Well, not meaningless, but not meaningFUL enough. Does it have VVT, direct injection, turbo? HP is readily availabe for any modern car, and it a much more relevant measure than displacement. You can divorce that from weight if you want... but, weight is just as easily available. And while power/weight is not the end-all of classing considerations, power and weight give you a MUCH better idea of what kind of acceleration a car is capable of than just "displacement".

If we do power-to-weight in the vicinity of 18.5 lbs/hp. That would allow the 4-cylinder 2017 Camry. (178hp & 3245 lbs = 18.2) And it would exclude the V6 Camry (268 & 3480 lbs = 13.0). Did I mention that I'm spitballing here? You're taking every notion that I put out as if it were gospel. I don't care if the V6 Camry makes the cut or not, there just happens to BE one registered for the next event. In my head, a V6 Camry is still a craptastic V6 Camry from 10 years ago, I didn't give it much thought. Clearly, this is the new "hot Camry", and probably doesn't belong in FAST S5.

Anyhow, if you didn't guess, I really don't like the "3 liter" limit for S5. If we were going to do a displacement limit, it would have to be closer to 2.3 or 2.5. But, even then... it would have to come with "no turbo" attached to it or it wouldn't work.

I'm open to other ideas besides power/weight. But, that particular one doesn't fly.

We've offered to move FAST Monday to Dan's garage and have his Stalker finished in 2 months. He didn't bite.

Loren wrote:We've offered to move FAST Monday to Dan's garage and have his Stalker finished in 2 months. He didn't bite.

Now that would get me out on a Monday night!

I’d be down for that! Plus I have a thing for kit cars [emoji4]


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dbeng wrote:Well Doug, that a very good question
Am I presently building a kit?
Yes, in as much as I do actually own a Stalker kit and started assembling it over 2 years ago.
However, presently can be taken in the loosest form as I haven’t turned a bolt on it for over a year. Dan

Awesome. You are 35 years ahead of me all ready!!!

Loren wrote:

Jamie wrote:The Cooper S is still a DS car, so you can stop comparing it.

I'll be damned. I always thought it was HS. Don't know why.

Because Keith Robertson makes a standard Cooper (which is in HS) look as fast as a Cooper S.

Displacement is meaningless in this age. Well, not meaningless, but not meaningFUL enough. Does it have VVT, direct injection, turbo? HP is readily availabe for any modern car, and it a much more relevant measure than displacement. You can divorce that from weight if you want... but, weight is just as easily available. And while power/weight is not the end-all of classing considerations, power and weight give you a MUCH better idea of what kind of acceleration a car is capable of than just "displacement".

You have much of that work done for you simply by confining yourself to H Street...the SAC has already looked at that math before placing cars there. Displacement's easy for people to find, but use horsepower if you don't like that...there's an even chance people will know (or can find) that. Anything more complex, and you'll end up spending an evening working out classing before every event, because your new entrants aren't going to sit there and figure out power-to-weight ratios.

Jamie wrote:You have much of that work done for you simply by confining yourself to H Street...the SAC has already looked at that math before placing cars there.

They've done the math for cars that they care about. "Camry" still occupies one line in H Street. Even the fire-breathing 260 hp V6 version. (and that's just one example) Yesterday you were concerned about that Camry 3.5 liter V6, and it's 215 tires.

Displacement's easy for people to find, but use horsepower if you don't like that...there's an even chance people will know (or can find) that. Anything more complex, and you'll end up spending an evening working out classing before every event, because your new entrants aren't going to sit there and figure out power-to-weight ratios.

I'll just do what I usually do and guess 90% of the time when someone leaves their class blank. If it's wrong, somebody who cares will catch it. It takes 30 seconds to look up HP and Weight. Not a big deal.

We seem to have an interesting idea brewing here. Time to see if anyone cares. Gonna write up some options and start a poll on this. Stand by.

S5 Poll

Go vote!

I already posted in the S5 thread, but I want to resurrect the dead horse here for just a moment. I moved to S5, bought a Miata and swapped in an open diff specifically to qualify, because I was frustrated with my lack of competitiveness in M2. S5 allowed me to improve my driving skill without the frustration of being soundly beaten at every event. I don't have any illusions that I've gotten fast, but I have improved. And I've had fun doing it.

I've seen several other less experienced Miata drivers in the class. Andrew smith got his start there and has moved on. S5 provides a place for the old slow Miata guys like me. I think it would be a shame to take that away.

As I said in the S5 thread, I no longer have a dog in this fight. The Red Herring goes up for sale at the end of the season, and I'm going back to M2 knowing I won't be competitive. But I think the stiffer competition will help me continue to improve. I just hope Drew stays in M0.
Dave

Thanks for providing the counterpoint to Philip's "hollow victory" argument.

Loren wrote:Thanks for providing the counterpoint to Philip's "hollow victory" argument.

If I achieve victory, there will be nothing hollow about it. I have a wager with a certain other old guy who will have to buy both of our families a steak dinner if he can't beat me by a total of nine points in the remaining two Open events.

Dinner bets with co-drivers are the best!

Blue_Heron wrote:I moved to S5, bought a Miata and swapped in an open diff specifically to qualify, because I was frustrated with my lack of competitiveness in M2. S5 allowed me to run a car generally superior to HS-sourced cars in the class.

Fixed that for you. You could have just as easily gone and bought a used standard MINI, or an Integra, or any number of used Hondas, or a host of other HS cars. I'm not faulting you -- the rules allowed a Miata, so why not buy the best car for the class, but that's why S5 effectively became a spec Miata class. For anything not a Miata or other ES-sourced car, it was shooting fish in a barrel.